Lets see:

1. We spend upwards of $150b-$200b a year in support of services for illegal immigrants PER YEAR.
2. We spend billions of $ on support of citizens who get hooked on drugs being carried over the border by said illegal immigrants.
3. Law-abiding citizens bear the brunt of any criminal activity being perpetrated by illegal immigrants.
4. Initial funding for the wall is $5.7b with complete wall being $25b. Wall pays for itself in 3 months.
5. Wall will probably come in at less than budgeted because the President knows how to build things.

Build the wall.

It makes sound financial and compassionate sense.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

that's funny.

I don't think that Trump has really made a convincing case that $25 billion for a massive Wall would be a good, effective use of taxpayer money. First of all, most illegal immigrants got here by entering the country legally and then overstaying their visas, not by sneaking across the border. The Wall does nothing to address that problem, and notice that Trump hasn't even mentioned anything about dealing with that larger problem. Secondly, in this day and age, having a large physical Wall as the main feature of a border protection strategy is, as Trump himself admitted, "medieval" in a way. Big, tall walls like the Great Wall of China or Rome's Hadrian's Wall made sense back in those days because they didn't have advanced surveillance systems such as motion sensors, infrared sensors, blimps, drones, motorized patrols, etc., etc.. Much of the southern border consists of miles and miles of desert and it's not necessary to nab intruders right at the border, when a "defense-in-depth" strategy is more effective and cost-efficient. Relying on a fixed, very expensive solid Wall and putting one's eggs all into that basket for border security just invites people to devise ways of making short tunnels under it or flying drones or gliders a short distance over it. There is no "defense-in-depth" to a fixed Wall.

So why is Trump so fixated on an expensive Wall? I very much doubt that he has carefully and deeply studied various border security options and decided on an expensive Wall since, as we all know, Trump is not a very deep thinker. No, we wants a Wall because it looks big and powerful and he made a campaign promise to his supporters to build one. So basically he's asking US taxpayers to pay $25 billion for a Wall so that he doesn't look foolish in front of his supporters. Seems like he's asking a bit too much to me. BTW, didn't he say that Mexico, not US taxpayers, were going to pay for the Wall? What happened with that?

A bit of honesty from Trump with a frank and candid admission revealing why he really wants the Wall:

""Right now, if I did something that was foolish like gave up on border security, the first ones that would hit me are my senators. They'd be angry at me," Trump said, expressing publicly what he's told lawmakers and allies over the past several weeks. "The second ones would be the House and the third ones would be, frankly, my base and a lot of Republicans out there..."
CNN: Web Link
- - - - - - -

So what do you say, everyone? Should we all clamor for building this $25 billion Wall so that Republican Senators, Republican Representatives, and Trump's base don't get "angry" at Trump? So what if the Wall is outrageously expensive and of questionable effectiveness compared to alternative border security upgrades. Isn't making sure that Trump's base doesn't get angry with him worth $25 billion?

If the democrats thought for one minute that the illegals were voting Republican then you would see a wall so big that it could be seen from the space station.

Jeff,

Thanks for the well researched and pithy response. It's such a delight to read such insightful opinion.

Dan

We don’t need a wall. We need a better process for allowing people to come to this country to work; to pull themselves out of poverty; to help their families; to make their countries a better place. Otherwise, you better build around the whole country—both coasts and Canada. People are creative; life finds a way.

I wonder how many GOP/Trump supporters actually know of the previous 5 or so billion approved, very little has been spent? And now he wants another 5.7b?

NO problem, where is the check from Mexico? Hello? Anyone?

Ahhh...I see...so the numbers posted are no big deal.

Enjoy our great roads, quality of education and medical coverage in the great State of California Kathleen and Shale.

Sheesh...

So sad to see no mention of the many Americans affected by the government shutdown and making it priority number one ! Then negotiate immigration. Open our government now!

Doug,
I agree with you - we need what the "wall" is meant to represent; controlled borders with our ability to control who, and when they, come into the country. Whether a physical wall is the end all solution, I'm not convinced and I think it is more of a political monument than an actual solution in execution.

My fear is that Trump is doing the right thing for the wrong outcome. This same action could drive a much better overall solution than just a physical wall.

Haven't been following this Wall issue closely, but one thing that I don't get is if building this Wall is so important for Trump, then why didn't he move on getting funding for it in his first two years? What was he doing for two years while Congress was completely under Republican control, both the Senate and the House? It should have come to no surprise to Trump or any other Republican that they had a good chance of losing total control of Congress with the mid-term elections, since that frequently happens in the first mid-term after a new President is elected. So Trump wastes two years until the mid-terms, sees the opposition party finally take control of one of the two chambers of Congress and NOW he's suddenly desperate to get funds for the Wall??? Why didn't he do that before while his party still had full control of Congress? If someone has a good explanation as to why Trump wasn't foolish here, I would like to hear it.

Hard to blame President Trump on this one. He has been beating the drum for the last 2+ years and Paul Ryan wouldn’t get it through. He as well as Pelosi and Schumer are beholding to big business for cheap labor. You want to know the answer to anything then ask yourself the question.....where is the money. That’s what driving the establishment crazy is that you can’t bridge Trump because he already has his $10 billion. B

The US house chamber elected bunch will change again in two years.

On another note: I mailed my first quarter 2019 income tax payment to the United States Treasure on January 02, 2019. They have not yet deposited my check for its value. My first quarter income tax payment is due on or before 01/15/2019.

In an email exchange with my CPA, he informed me, that due to the government shutdown the mail room is closed, my check is not received and not deposited.

My CPA further informed me that on January 15, 2019 my income tax payment if not received by 01/15/2019 will be late, and subject to 5% penalty.

None the less, I still want the wall built.

@Pete

Well, if Trump wasn’t able to convince or twist Paul Ryan’s arm into getting funds for his Wall, I don’t know why Trump would think that he’s going to have any better luck with Pelosi.

The liar said that Mexico would pay for his wall. Now the liar holds those with families and the least money hostage.

This is absurd. Not even Trump wants "the wall" that extends from the Pacific to the Atlantic. Trump only wants some more wall so it looks like he at least partially kept a campaign promise.

I was just in San Diego, and there already is a wall. It starts at the Pacific and goes way inland, ending at a rugged mountain.

What is going on now in Washington is just political posturing.

Trump is doing what he does best....keep his nuts agitated. Step 1: Create a crisis. Step 2: Grant himself authoritarian powers to "solve" crisis. Where are all those 2nd amendment "patriots" who keep buying ridiculous guns to stop a tyrannical government?? If this isn't so clearly straight out of a dictator's playbook please tell me what "tyranny" means to you.

Let's get something darned straight about this government shutdown: NOBODY is noticing that 25% of the government is shutdown.

Just a few days ago I did a little internal and external polling with a few people and asked if they knew that 25% of the government was shutdown. Not one...NOT ONE knew about the shutdown including my own WIFE!

I defy any of you to tell me how your lives have been impacted in the last 2 weeks. Yeah yeah I know you'll say that the FDA is stopping their "regular" food inspections and people will work without paychecks...but tell us how YOUR life is impacted here in the Tri-valley.

Not one of you will be honest, I already know that.

Border wall

All of you technology buffs answer me this: If technology, coupled with manned patrols was all that was needed to stem the wave of drugs and illegal immigration across our border, then please tell me why the same technology (drones and sensors to the tune of hundred of 1000's) and manned patrols in say...AFGHANISTAN, deployed in the past 15 years at a cost of 100's of BILLIONS of $$ has not secured us a stable region and an outright win??

I'll wait for what will be a lot of hemming and hawing but no real answers.

BUILD THE WALL.

did you ask any of the 800,000 that did not get paid yesterday if they noticed?

also, trump said mexico would write a check for 5-10 billion for the wall. I know, you trumpys will say he never said that. he did not only say it but outline exactly how, you can see it on his since deleted campaign page on immigration: Web Link

"It's an easy decision for Mexico: make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion to ensure that $24 billion continues to flow into their country year after year. "

so i'm fine with that, use the 5-10 bil from mexico to build and fix parts of the current wall. problem solved.

@DKHSK: "NOBODY is noticing that 25% of the government is shutdown. Just a few days ago I did a little internal and external polling with a few people and asked if they knew that 25% of the government was shutdown. Not one...NOT ONE knew about the shutdown including my own WIFE!"

Sometimes DKHSK makes it way too easy. It's like he's just asking someone to hit him with a verbal pie-in-the face with the benefit of a prefect setup. I'm going to be nice today and restrain myself.
:-)

If those workers don't like the situation they're in, then they can find something else to do. In the end, they will get paid and their creditors will forgive interest on their late payments.

You know that right? That's the way it works.

And you still haven't answered my question: How has the shutdown affected YOU??

Can't do it can you?

And let's see, illegal immigration costs $150b to $200b A YEAR, and going up, and you want to quibble about one-time $5-$25b for a wall, with maintenance every year?

Get serious. I mean really...GET SERIOUS!

Doug,

Has the shutdown affected you?

Simple question that, if you live in the valley, I already know the answer.

But go ahead, throw pie in my face. I'm ready for anything you have, as usual.

Oh, and just so I'm clear, I KNOW he said Mexico would pay for the wall and it doesn't bother me one bit that he might not keep that promise.

Not. One. Bit.

Anybody with even a smidgen of knowledge of budgets for the US would know that $5b is a rounding error in our annual budget.

Build the wall.

@DKHSK

Dan, you know very well by now that I don't take you seriously.

@DKHSK,

Trump isn't asking for a wall either. His administration is asking for more technology and drones and some more fencing and walls, but not a wall across the entire southern border. They gave up on that a long time ago. Are you arguing for the Trump administration to change course and call for a a wall across the entire southern border?

its so stupid, you can get a cheap oxy/acetylene torch for under 100 bucks and it would melt thru one of those steel bollards like they were butter and since its now bollards instead of solid wall you just have to compromise one or 2 slats to get thru vs getting thru a solid wall. not to mention the 700+ known tunnels that already exist. and fix parts of the wall? if you are walking 500+ miles to get to border, you can just adjust your coarse by a degree or 2 to avoid the border sections that have the wall. there are so many holes in this its ridiculous. I would be more interested in spending the 5 bil on technologies for boarder and airports and shipping ports. A wall is just dumb waste of money.

and he had 2 years of complete house and senate control. if republicans would not give him the wall why should anyone. not dems fault his party punted the wall so they would not have to be saddled with that failure.

@ Michael Austin, you should fire your CPA. Everyone knows they IRS goes by the date you mailed your estimated taxes, not the day it is processed by the IRS.

@BobB

The Texas border east of El Paso is runs along the Rio Grande river, which forms a natural barrier with Mexico. The Rio Grande is a rather winding river so if one were to conclude that the natural river barrier is not sufficient and that a Wall is needed, it would be extremely expensive to construct a Wall that follows all of the many, many twists and turns of the river. Of course, one could fall back and build the Wall a mile or two from the river so that the Wall could be made straighter and shorter without having to follow all of the turns of the river, but then that would increase the land cost associated with building the Wall there because unlike the land west of El Paso which is mostly government owned, the land east of El Paso along the Rio Grande is mostly privately owned and all those landowners would have to be bought out or compensated for their lands.

@resident: "its so stupid, you can get a cheap oxy/acetylene torch for under 100 bucks and it would melt thru one of those steel bollards like they were butter..."

Makes you wonder what the outcome would be in a battle of wits between a self-professed super genius President and some illegal aliens, doesn't it?:

“Test of steel prototype for border wall showed it could be sawed through"
“A photo demonstrated that the steel columns could breached with a common industrial tool."

“President Donald Trump has repeatedly advocated for a steel slat design for his border wall, which he described as "absolutely critical to border security" in his Oval Office address to the nation Tuesday. But Department of Homeland Security testing of a steel slat prototype proved it could be cut through with a saw, according to a report by DHS."
NBC News:Web Link
_ _ _ _

Not one word from anyone regarding my Afghanistan analogy...

And ok, if steel isn't the right material then lets use concrete.

Says "resident": 'but you can use a sledgehammer to crack through the concrete!'

So lame...

I will share the impact the shutdown has had on my life. I work in the semiconductor industry. One of our project managers has gone to Europe to spend the holidays with his family. Left in mid-December. Now he isn't being allowed back in the country because of a minuscule processing problem with his paperwork. Basically the guy who's supposed to stamp his passport is laid off. I had agreed to handle his workload for the two weeks at the end of last year but now I'm doing two peeple's jobs indefinitely, working seven day/week.
"The creditors will forgive the interest".....wow!!! Hahaha! Who do you think you're talking to? You really thought that would just slip in the conversation and be accepted as fact? Dishonest Dan at it again. Swalwell for president!!!

"Basically the guy who's supposed to stamp his passport is laid off."

This is a lie: Web Link

Do better...

RA,

Exactly as I thought...

Dan

Jim Acosta of CNN explaining that he doesn't see a national emergency...while standing next to the border wall in McAllen Texas.

Web Link

LOL!!!!

You just can't make this stuff up!

If I didn't know better, I'd say good ol' Jim is deep cover for MAGA.

maybe the immigrants should just take Trumps own advice
“Don’t give up. Don’t allow it to happen. If there’s a concrete wall in front of you, go through it, go over it, go around it, but get to the other side of that wall.”
Trump-2004

Web Link

@DKHSK

You apparently have selective reading ability. The CBS web link you provided said,

"Another 380,000 workers have been furloughed from departments including NASA, the State Department, the National Park Service, the Forest Service, the Transportation Department, the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the IRS."

So your link does not indicate what Robert Adam said is a lie. It is totally within the realm of possibility that one of those furloughed employees was the person who stamps passports in a foreign embassy i.e. a State Department Employee.

I hate to say it Dan, but you're wasting your time on this forum. Everyone is smart enough to see thorough your deception. I'm actually wondering if you're a Russian troll.

This was posted on Facebook:

Howdy.

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

Web Link

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

Web Link

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money.

A passport stamp denial due to democrat intransigence in the face of a humanitarian crises?

I'll take that trade-off any day of the week.

Wouldn't you?

And you haven't been on this site long enough to call me a bot.

Do I have to post the link to the clip where Cheetos toddler boy says to Chuck that he will proudly shut the govt down and take the blame for it?? Everyone has seen it, right? Only Dishonest Dan refuses to accept reality. He truly earns the nickname I gave him with every comment he makes.
Swalwell for President!!!!

RA,

I think I've made my position quite clear about the shutdown.

I'm for it, and I don't care if the blame goes to Trump.

Leaders lead, and he does that very well.

This issue is a delay tactic for the imminent impeachment hearings. It also keeps the nuts agitated.

Let's petition every city with a trump property to change the names of the streets they are located on to Obama Blvd or Avenue or whatever.

@DKHSK: "I think I've made my position quite clear about the shutdown. I'm for it, and I don't care if the blame goes to Trump."

Hey! We finally agree on something! I don't care if Trump gets blamed for it, either.

I can truly see the Hate pouring from some of you commenting about "The Wall ". This is exactly how your President wants you to react. This is how our nation is being divided by a Bully who thinks he is doing a fantastic job within the White House which is affecting the entire world . I have absolutely NO Respect for his animal that sits in the Oval Office.

He alone is the reason for the condition of our Planet and is getting away with his constant lies . Sadly He is Brain Washing his entire group of followers and getting away with it. It will come back to bite him.
Hopefully sooner than later!!

Thank God we aren't related. Evil Man...Evil Family....

geez where is the empathy for the 800k either not working or working and not getting paid? Why punish them for the 'wall' funding? Does it sound better to say 25% is shutdown?
How come passing all the other non-related funding bills is out-of-bounds? Hey, GOP cheerleader(s)?
Man, we need a 3rd viable party that isn't brain dead.

Doug,

Trump already accepted blame. He's a leader, that's what they do.

And why are you still responding to me? Stop obsessing and follow through.

I'll ask the question ONE MORE TIME: How is the shutdown affecting any of you, personally, here in the Tri-valley?

Build the darned wall.

You want it? You pay for it! Contribute to the GoFundMe started by some guy. I don't want ANY of my tax dollars going to a wall.

Swalwell for President!!!!!

Dan, are you heartless? It doesn’t have to affect any of us personally. It’s already hurting 800,000 employees, and I don’t know how many people seeking federal services.

Kathleen,

No, I'm not heartless, I'm a realist.

What the establishment is wanting us to believe is that the government workers furloughed, by and large, are necessary for the day to day needs in the US. I happen to believe the opposite.

So I ask you, how are you directly affected, excepting your empathy?

Not one person in this thread has been able to answer this question on a personal basis. Then we have others who prefer to spew venom like tough keyboard warriors hoping that it will simply make me back off.

As you well know, I never back away.

Dan and Kathleen are both correct.

Dans point though is in reference to large government and a threat of a shutdown of non essential services, and if government can run without them, why are they government services.

Kathleen is right about people being impacted by this with no direct influence over the impact- ie they can't directly control the outcome of a gridlock. Theyre fallout for politicians. And thats not right. And yes theyll get backpay, but still wrong.

@Kathleen :”Dan, are you heartless? It doesn’t have to affect any of us personally. It’s already hurting 800,000 employees, and I don’t know how many people seeking federal services.”

Dan subscribes to the Trump motto:
“If it doesn’t affect me personally, then why the heck should I care?”

A border patrol agent telling Trump and reporters today who and from where was captured trying to come over the border in just one day in one border state:

Web Link

Pull quote: "...113 illegal entry apprehensions from Pakistan, India, China, Ecuador, Romania, Nicaragua and more."

Yeah, technology will be sufficient.

/s

No Scandinavians? Socialism must not be too bad.

I have NEVER said nobody would be impacted.

I've been through MANY down-turns in my career in tech. I've been laid-off and have done lay-offs.

There were MANY millions of people laid off in each of the downturns and you know what, the vast majority (even MOST) of them survived.

Look at the labor participation rate right now; the highest its ever been. Don't tell me that this economy cannot absorb these losses, it can and you know what? It might even thrive some more.

We don't need a large government. We need a SMART government and those of you that think we have it are delusional.

Build the darned wall.

“If it doesn’t affect me personally, then why the heck should I care?”

Nobody stops any of you from getting out your checkbooks, and writing out a check to pay for a car payment for somebody affected by the furlough. I'm sure you can find SOMEONE to help, right?

Put your money where your mouth is boys and girls.

False argument Dan. Ask people who are affected. Plenty out there.

Kathleen,

Not false at all.

You're not impacted, are you?

You can admit it, no shame in admitting the truth and still having empathy.

Wait until you have to pay $6 per apple because there are no immigrants to pick them for 20 cents a crate.

"I already paid their salaries with my taxes Dishonest Dan. You're the one who wants the government to spend MY tax dollars on something YOU want."

Yep...and you know why?

Because our man WON. *


* Hatip: Barack H Obama

Sucks to have your rules played against you eh, RA?

Get used to it.

"Wait until you have to pay $6 per apple because there are no immigrants to pick them for 20 cents a crate."

I guess you've never heard of the "guest worker programs" for farms, eh?

You aren't very good at this...

oh and p.s., I eat strictly meat and green vegetables. Don't eat apples...the sugar might make you fat.

Thank me later.

"Yep...and you know why? Because our man WON. *"

Guess you were asleep during elementary school civics class, Dan. President Trump alone is not the US government.

Hey! How about that. You got schooled again tonight. A two-fer!

Enjoy BLUE California Dishonest Dan. Where's C Baker today? Haha!!!Your five time draft-dodger, six times bankrupt "man" won by cheating and committing treason against the country you claim to love. How many from his campaign are currently in prison? You're next!

Guest workers? Who's gonna stamp their passports Dishonest Dan?

Doug, can you pick up tomorrow's shift? Kathleen, maybe you can handle the weekend and I will be back Monday to school our resident toddler. Thanks!

I am starting to believe he may need to be tested for a learning disability.

If not a wall how would you spend 5.7 billion to control immigration and know who comes into the USA?

Open border advocates who live in the academia bubble don't need to answer...

If trump, or anyone, was serious about addressing illegal immigration, they would focus their enforcement efforts on the demand. Illegal immigrants are not coming into the country to hang out in our nice weather. They're coming here because jobs are more plentiful and pay much better than the country they are from. Any normal person in their position trying to provide for their family would do the same. Trying to dissuade people from caring for their families is a nearly impossible task.

Rather than building a wall, we could spend a tiny fraction of that money on punishing businesses who hire illegal immigrants. If you take away the job supply, people will stop coming. I would suggest starting with Trump's golf club, which is under federal investigation for providing false immigration documents to illegal immigrants. Perhaps lock the owner up to send a message to the other businesses enticing illegal immigrants to come to the country.

Let's get the facts straight. The government t workers are on a paid vacation. They will all get paid for not working. The only issue is they have to wait for their checks. Such a tragedy. Boo hoo. To say this is a tragedy or heartless is disgusting. A tragedy is officer singh being murdered by an illegal immigrant who came across the southern border. The heartless selfish people who defend the policy of not securing our country by every means possible including building some type of barrier are the heartless ones

Build barriers to prevent easy access. hire more people to defend our country. Use all technology possible to assist on this . Lock up anyone in our country illegally. Lock up any one who helps anyone in our country illegally. Lock up anyone who over stays their Visa. Use drones radar and dogs to help secure our northern and southern border. Do the same with airports and other ports of entry etc etc etc. A wall is just one part of the solution. Disengenious heartless people will only focus on the wall. Rip officer Singh and Kate steinle among many others. Our politicians have been gaming us for years with support from the heartless and clueless many of who have posted asinine statements on here. Put Americans ahead of illegal or legal immigrants. It's really simple unless your heartless and morally bankrupt.

@Wow :”Disengenious heartless people will only focus on the wall.”

Ummm....actually Trump is the one who is focusing on the Wall and refusing to accept any deal which doesn’t involve building a new, massive, expensive Wall.

Donald Trump: A guy who lies as easily as he breathes:

Trump in 2016: “It's an easy decision for Mexico. Make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion to ensure that $24 billion continues to flow into their country year after year."

Trump today: “Obviously, I never said this and I never meant they're (Mexico) going to write out a check"

Doug - we all heard the same thing, I think we can all agree to that. Please tell me what politician hasn't lied? I think the difference here is Trump is denying/recanting it more so than others in the past that just don't address it. Politicians are liars. All of them. Good and bad.

Obama lied, Bush lied, Clinton lied, Bush lied, Reagan lied......

@Pleasanton Parent :”we all heard the same thing, I think we can all agree to that.”

Well, actually, no. That’s factually incorrect. We don’t all agree to that. There are still a lot of Trump supporters who refuse to believe that Trump is a liar or that he lied in this case.

Your obsession with trump is hilariously disturbing. If you have an issue with lying. Please link all your comments about Obama lying. You can keep your doctor. No you can't and he knew it.
You can keep your healthcare. No you can't and he knew it. Benghazi was caused by a video. No it wasn't and he knew it. Throw Hillary in their too.
So dont think youn care about people lying unless it does not support your agenda. Be honest. Did they lie? Yes or no. Now back to the subject at hand securing our country anyone have any actual ideas on how to do this. I've stated several above. Anyone. Anyone. Or are you just here to attack people. Time to grow up Pleasanton residents. I challenge anyone in here to produce solutions not just sling mud. What is your solution to the problem with illegal immigration and our failed immigration policies. You have the floor let's see who you are.

@Wow :”Please link all your comments about Obama lying. You can keep your doctor.”

Given the fact that you Trump supporters are unable to come up with much else than repeatedly bringing up the same old “You can keep your doctor” statement or Hillary’s “snipers in Bosnia” lie, I would say that Trump has them both beat by miles and miles in terms of both the massive frequency of his lies (almost daily) as well as the sheer outrageousness of his lies. But go ahead and keep trying to be a good Trumpkin and pretending that Trump - a guy who is such a deranged liar that he invented the fake personas ‘John Miller’ and ‘John Barron’ so that he could lie and brag about himself in the 3rd person - is in the same league as any other politician when it comes to lying.

As expected. Your exposed. No I won't do your homework for you you can do it your self. I challenge anyone on here including you to state solutions to the issues . You clearly are incapable of doing that. I'll tell you what, here is another chance. State your solutions.
Also you might want to get a refund from that mind reading class you took. You dont know anything about me. So dont make foolish statements like you think you do. Spend your time stating your solution to the immigration and illegal immigration crises in this country.
Time to grow up and make your arguement. The floor is yours. Let's hear your idea. we already know how you feel about trump so you dont have to rehash that. just simple ideas on Solving the problem or you can continue to expose yourself for what you are. Your choice Doug and the rest of you who can't put forth any solutions. Let's hear it people let's hear your solutions to problems that really effect Americans like murder and rape by illegal aliens not paid vacations. Boo hoo

@Wow :”I challenge anyone on here including you to state solutions to the issues . You clearly are incapable of doing that.”

You are clearly incapable of reading. I already addressed the pro & con issue of a large Wall as opposed to the current border security and monitoring strategy in one of my first posts here. No Trump supporters, including you, bothered to comment on the post. Instead, you all started going into the usual tired old bashing Democrats and liberals routine that we’re all too familiar with and so here we are.

By the way, concerning the death of Kathryn Steinle that some people, including “Wow” here, are always bringing up in connection with illegal immigration, it’s interesting to note that there were actually three people who played criminally negligent roles in Steinle’s death: (1) The US Park ranger who left his unsecured gun in his car in San Francisco and allowed it to be stolen, (2) the criminal who broke into the ranger’s car, stole the gun, and left the loaded gun near a public pier with lots of people, and (3) the criminally stupid illegal immigrant who found the loaded gun and decided that a public pier was a good place to start shooting it. It took the combined efforts of all three of these people to cause Steinle’s death. Take out any one of these three people, and Kathryn Steinle would still be alive. Of these three people, two are most likely US citizens while one was an illegal immigrant. So why are certain people so focused on Idiot #3 and ignoring the key, essential roles played by (US citizen) Idiots #1 and #2 ?

I did read it including "putting all the eggs in one basket " regarding the wall
All three should be prosecuted including the sherriff and any elected official that defends protects harbors or in any other way helps illegal aliens.
Now go ahead Doug tell us your solution to the problem of illegal and legal immigration you touched on some topics but never summarized your solution. Waiting to hear how you would handle the illegal and legal immigration crises.
Spell out your solutions dont just gloss over it. Since were on the topic of a wall, let me ask you a simple question. Do you think a wall is immoral?
Furthermore as I previously stated you have no idea who I support or who i voted for. Your are making false statements about me. Now you have been told. Let's find out who the liar is.
Waiting for ideas and solutions. The challenge is still up. Stand up and state your case or "sit down and shut up" in the immortal words of our elected official hirono regarding men.
And your solutions are?

Doug,

Which happened first:

1. The undocumented immigrant shooter coming over the border illegally?
2. The gun being in the Rangers car?
3. The gun being stolen?

Hint: #1. Without him, Steinle never happens.

The gun would still be in the car and the would have still been stolen.

You really aren't doing well.

Build the wall.

Dan

And of course, we know that as a federal worker, the Ranger that irresponsibly left the gun in the car was probably never fired, much less reprimanded for his/her carelessness.

Build the wall.

To those who say "you could cut a hole in a fence or you could bash through a concrete wall therefore a wall won't work" I say this:
You can easily knock down most front front doors with your shoulder and break into a car with a hammer but you still bother to lock your doors.....why?
If walls don't work why was there one around the DNC convention?
Why is there one around Nancy Pelosi's mansion?
Israel has a wall and it's extremely effective. Saying a wall won't work is just stupid. So why can't we just be honest here?
Republicans want illegals for the cheap labor and Democrats want illegals for the votes. That's what this is about....

Awake,

Exactly!

Both sides are playing against the middle.

Wall Street (left and right) vs. Main Street, pure and simple.

Dan

@DKHSK :”Which happened first: ”

Irrelevant.

"Irrelevant."

It's ok, I knew you wouldn't answer.

D

I say...shut down the boarder completely and lets take care of our own. Like under the bridges, the mentally ill, the sick first.....then when we get that done, look for the boarder to be opened to qualified immigrants coming in. NO SWALWELL President for us BUILD the WALL and take care of our own first!

@DKHSK

Seriously, Dan. Whether your event #1 happened before or after your events #2 and #3 is of absolutely no relevance. Kind of surprised that you would even try to bring the matter up, and it's not like I had a high opinion of your logical abilities before.

“It's ok, I knew you wouldn't answer.” Why bother asking. As to your what came first nonsense, we raise plenty of homegrown nutcases (see recent Wisconsin case). A wall won’t help that either.

Awake, your analogy of front doors defeats your own argument. Why lock the door, it doesn’t stop a determined thief. Why build a wall, it doesn’t stop a desperate refugee. Israel? That’s a land grab.

Wow, $5 billion (and Trump has said up to $25 billion is needed) is a good start to having enough people for the processing of those seeking asylum. How about embassies in the countries of origin having enough people and a process (and temporary shelter?) for those in danger. You know, start at the source.

The Mediterranean and leaky boats and thousands of deaths aren’t stopping other desperate people. It is foolish to believe there aren’t better solutions that aren’t a complete waste of money. I think Trump is just bored and wants to build something, because that’s what he thinks he’s good at doing.

@awake

Come on. You don’t see the fundamental differences in goals and expenses and security situations and cost-to-benefit ratios between building a wall around Pelosi’s house or even the state of Israel, and a massive Wall over a 1000 mile border? Be thankful to Kathleen that she bothered to respond to you. I thought that your post showed so little thought that it wasn’t worth my time or interest.

Doug, you can't see that the basic concept is the same?
Either wealls work or they don't. Obviously they do. Which was my point.
Kathleen is more interested in pushing a misguided agenda than actually debating issues based on facts. Like so many who are opposed, any argument is a good argument even if it's completely ridiculous....which is why we have this problem to begin with. When they are losing the argument based on facts, deflect.
How constructive is that? If we can't have an honest conversation, why do we bother at all? You have to ask yourself, am I more concerned with a political point or am I more concerned with doing what's right for America? Plenty of video out there of Obama, Pelosi and Schumer talking about strengthening border security and that we have to keep illegal aliens from entering our country and burdening our economy and making American less safe...tons of it....but when Trumps in office suddenly it's the exact opposite? The left has absolutely zero credibility and they depend on a lower functioning populace to repeat the hogwash until its becomes fact....to them. Again, what's really important...winning political points? Or protecting Americans?

I have no agenda. And what agenda do you suppose I have? Strengthening the border doesn’t have to be a wall. Saying a wall is the only and best solution is not cnstructive or part of an honest conversation. What are we being protected from?

just keep in mind that a hole can be made under the wall, or a tunnel from a nearby property that exits on this side of the border or simply just climb over the wall with ropes, bungees, ladders, etc.
these methods had been used already for many years. A big long wall still can be easily conquered. It's just a big waste of resources and money.

My God Kathleen...are you not paying attention?
This is exactly the kind of ridiculous response I am talking about.
If you honestly can answer that question...HONESTLY then you really need to be paying more attention to the debate.

@ the gardener: right, and a crook can just smash the window out of your car and break in so why bother lock the doors?

What? So you make the same self defeating argument using a car?

Do you think you are protecting jobs? Do you believe immigrants are entering in droves? Do you believe the economy suffers? Do you think they create a burden? Plenty of data to cite otherwise. Tell me what you need.

Kathleen Ruegsegger How the hell can you possibly misconstrue that as a self defeating argument? This is the exact kind of garbage I am talking about....if you honestly don't get it, I can't help you.

You are repeating yourself and not answering my questions. Deflection?

Kathleen Ruegsegger you're deflecting from the point....if its so easy to break into a car or a house or whatever....why do you bother to lock the doors? Can you answer the question?

anyone who says a wall wouldn't help stop illegal immigration is dumb. anyone who thinks a wall would stop all illegal immigration is equally dumb.

the wall debate is just political theater. it's not hard to read the tea leaves on this one.

Lou Stuhle you are absolutely correct, A wall will not stop all illegal immigration but it will greatly stem the tide. And yes, much of this is political theater, unfortunately.
I like the response from Vic-tah the engineer above who pointed out some legitimate concerns with the wall concept. This is how a constructive debate is done, each side presents legitimate points until the logical path forward presents itself.
But this ridiculous political argument from the ill informed peanut gallery is just not helpful, and worse, it continues to widen the gap in our society.
Like my father taught me; "It's not WHO's right, it's WHAT's right that matters".....if we could only embrace that philosophy as Americans we wouldn't have such division in our country.

Sure, awake. Habit.

I don’t actually believe locks or alarms or cameras stop people. Although the cameras at least might provide evidence. So, a wall will not deter either. Not at Pelosi’s, not at Mexico. It is just a habit some want to expand.

So, again what does the wall protect us from?

I would suggest what matters is finding ways to help those who are so desperate they will cross vast stretches land and water to find the promise of a better life for themselves and their families; people who trust mules, die in trucks and vans, whose children die, who get their children across and stay behind, who know they may not succeed.

Kathleen Ruegsegger DEFLECT....you are so transparent.
Then stop locking your car and house....break the habit.

@awake

I used to park my car in San Jose overnight and ride the train home. I would leave my car unlocked because I found out the hard way that if I locked my car, the thieves would break the car window but not steal anything because I didn't leave anything in my car worth stealing. Even though they didn't steal anything, I was still out $200 to replace the window.

Analogy to the wall: If we build a wall, not only will the wall be expensive, we will be spending a lot of money to constantly repair the holes being put in it by people who, for the most part, just want to come here and make a better lives for themselves and their children. So we would be spending a lot of money and not be any more secure than we are now.

@DKHSK

Even if a boarder wall would be useful in some locations, Trump wants it purely for political reason i.e. he promised his supported he would build a wall. If he wasn't doing it for political reasons, he would change his demand to simply saying "I would like more funding for boarder security in general. Then, I will let the career security experts in DHS (not me or any of my political appointees) decide what is the most cost effective way to secure the boarders with that money."

I think Democrats would be willing to compromise and provide more funding for boarder security in general as long as it's not explicitly earmarked for a wall. Of course, I highly doubt Cadet Bone Spur will compromise and move on. He would much rather drag this out as long as possible because it fires up his support base and distract from all the other things going on in the US and world that he screwed up.

The US is more divided and hate filled that it has been in decades. The relationship with our allies is the weakest it's been since the end of WWII. Russia is getting stronger. The US is getting weaker. Russia is calling the shots in more parts of the world and will soon be calling the shots in Syria. Iran is back to building nuclear weapons and the world is on course to experience major climate change. A wall is not going to stop what's really going to kill you and neither will Trump.

"Trump wants it purely for political reason i.e. he promised his supported he would build a wall."

OMG!

I can give you $150b-200b reasons why Trumps wall is not political.

Or how about the mass quantities, TONS!, of drugs that pore in through the open areas of the border.

Or what about the cost in human lives, most recently a LEGAL immigrant police officer gunned down by an illegal immigrant criminal.

And here everyone is saying this is just "politics".

He campaigned on the wall. He's going to build the wall.

It's called KEEPING A PROMISE to the citizens.

God darned if people on the other side haven't lost their minds over Trump.

Dan

"It's called KEEPING A PROMISE to the citizens."

Wrong. It's called keeping a promise to his minority base.

How many federal buildings in the TriValley area? Yeah, not many so easy to have no empathy for innocent people effected.

Most in this tread 'tudes' would change once they were effected by the shutdown. Fact.

And to shock the chief GOP cheerleader: I say build the wall. Put Trump's name in really big gold colored lettering. He'll be happy and maybe move on to his next promise to his shrinking minority base.

SHale99 In case you weren't keeping track, trump was elected by the vast majority of the states and the electoral college. The left will say that more people voted for Hillary but that's not how elections are run in this country. The electoral college was set up by the founding fathers so that a couple big states with a large populace of similar thinking individuals couldn't dictate to the majority of the country what they wanted. That was the point of the electoral college. The vast majority of the country voted for and supports our President who is just trying to save this country from those who would do us harm.

Well, I read the comments above and observed the mindset of those posting, DKSHK 27 times, Doug 20 times. My thoughts... We already have a wall from San Diego to Yuma Az. So Calif is secure, ya think, lol. All of us are travelers on the spaceship Earth, but we are taught from youth to wary of others. Should
America change its name from the Land of Free and Home of the brave to Land of the Scared and Home of the Nimby?

Trump and Congress share blame for the shutdown. Either side could end it. They have no empathy for those who aren't getting paid. If a law was passed that The President, members of Congress and their staffs were not paid (and no retroactive pay)during a shutdown there would be no more shutdowns.

If Democrats would stop obstructing virtually everything we wouldn't have a shut down.

Zolli....laughable! "Let's take care of our own first", under the bridges blah blah blah Hahaha! You vote time and time again for Republthugs who cut those SAME people's benefits and help venues to give the richest members of our society HUGE tax cuts!!! Go away! You are not good at truth.

A solution was provided by Idrownkittens but all Trumpeteers conveniently ignored it. These immigrants are coming here for money/low paying jobs. If you penalize ALL businesses $1,000,000/illegal worker on staff, they will do VERY thorough background checks to make sure they don't get dinged with a fat fee. You may be surprised to find out that such laws actually already exist but the fee is only 10k/employee and Republithugs have cut the budget for the enforcement branch of this operation year after year so now it doesn't have money to operate. All in the name of "Protect Saint Business".

You hire an illegal gardner....pay 1,000,000 fine
You hire an illegal housekeeper....pay 1,000,000 fine
You hire an illegal day laborer....pay 1,000,000 fine

If these people don't have a way to get jobs and make money they won't come here. You don't need a wall. You need to eliminate the INCENTIVE.

But you can't do that, can you. No. Your frugality is stronger than your morality. YOU are the reason they keep coming. Look in the mirror.

Robert Adam yes reduce incentive....like welfare and other benefits non citizens collect. If they knew they weren't going to be coddled by the left they wouldn't come here in the first place. You break the law crossing our border, you get shipped back. Period. You do it again you go to jail. Period. That would stem the tide in a big way. But, the left needs the votes....so they make excuses to bring them in.

Awake: And he lost the popular vote by nearly 3 million. Yeah, the electoral college made him President. So, he's the President. AND now his base he caters to is now under 40% and has been pretty much stable right around that. Have YOU been keeping track?
Regardless he is quite afraid of his base and what will happen if he 'blinks' on 'the wall'. So federal employees are the hostage. You and GOP cheerleaders must be proud? No empathy at all. Sad!

No insanity. Illegals CAN'T get welfare or any other benefits. You need to change your TV and radio channels once in a while. It's been repeated so often on the right wing nut stations that you all believe it and are willing to look foolish repeating it. Do yourself a favor. Walk into the welfare office, tell them you are illegal and would like some benefits and some food stamps. Then come back to your keyboard and apologize.

SHale99 balderdash. You guys are still sore because after all that "Trump can never win" garbage you all looked like idiots when he did. Now the economy and jobs etc are soaring and you simply HAVE to throw stones. How could you possibly admit you were wrong? That's okay though, fair minded people know what time it is. Just makes you guys look even more foolish.

Doug,
The US Park ranger who left his unsecured gun in his car in San Francisco and allowed it to be stolen, (2) the criminal who broke into the ranger’s car, stole the gun, and left the loaded gun near a public pier with lots of people, and (3) the criminally stupid illegal immigrant who found the loaded gun and decided that a public pier.

Of these 3, 2 are epidemics.
- soft on crime approaches that continue to tolerate criminal behavior. Vehicle breakins are out of control in SF, largely in part due to continued catch and release.
- illegal immigration.

So if youre going to go back in the atring of events you must also attach the tolerance to breakins as a cause.

Here's another proven effective solution instead of a wall:

"thoughts and prayers"

It works in our schools, right?

PP,

Thanks PP. I do try to be completely opposite of everything he is, does, thinks, etc. Seems to make me a pretty good person. Try it!

I really think what the border needs and would solve all the problems is more cowbell.

Web Link

Cowbell—a classic. Thanks BobB.

One wonders why RA didn't find this particular nugget of voter fraud here in the great state of California in some Conservative website he claims he reads:

Web Link

Pull quote: 1.5m inactive voters pulled off the rolls here in California, and specifically LA County.

"Specifically LA County", so you know there are many more elsewhere.

But there couldn't be ANY voter fraud here in California. /s

Build the wall.

Again...be upset with the people who had over 700 days to give you what you want and didn't. It makes every argument you make false, fake and dishonest

Can't wait until a Democratic president declares that 40,000 dead Americans by guns is an emergency and comes and takes all of yours. Then declares that having no medical care is a national emergency and gives medicare to all.

You gave Trump all the tools (both houses) and plenty of time and opportunity and he played you for a fool. HE DOESN"T CARE ABOUT YOU! His job is to make you angry. So is Faux and Breitbart and all the rest. Their jobs are to make and keep you angry. And they are good at it! Look at you. You're a mess Dishonest Dan. Getting embarrassed in a semi-public venue by little ol' me. Sad. But fun.

"Can't wait until a Democratic president declares that 40,000 dead Americans by guns is an emergency and comes and takes all of yours."

One of your more breathtakingly stupid ideas.

With a Supreme Court Majority and, uh, the Constitution, do you really think this will happen? LOL!

"Not ONCE have I ever seen a comment where you criticized Repubs! Not ONCE!"

Google is your friend.

I'd take an illegal over you any day